Flower Gardeners II

Mar 13, 2006 10:27 AM

Joni Rose :

Hello Barbara,

I have a challenge. I plan to buy a new place and move out of the house I am renting. I have a large fish pond with flower beds surrounding it and other rock and flat gardens that have some perennials but there are holes that I usually fill with annuals (and spend a fortune doing it). As I may be moving soon, I would like to fill my garden as inexpensively as possible to be colourful and showy yet save some money for my new garden. Can you suggest some ways to garden on the cheap? I live in the Southern coastal area of British Columbia, Canada.
Joni

Mar 13, 2006 3:46 PM

Barbara M. Martin :

Hi Joni! Dontcha just love moving. But, it sounds like you have some exciting plans ahead. WOoHoo!

Purchasing annuals definitely adds up fast if you need more than just a few. The least expensive way to go would be planting seeds for some easy to grow annuals. Plant them directly in the garden to avoid all the seed-starting equipment expenses.

I'm not sure of your color scheme, but for sunny spots you could try some of these planted early for early season bloom: sweet peas, sweet alyssum, calendula; then marigolds, nasturtium and batchelor buttons, then for later season bloom you could use cleome, sunflowers, thunbergia, and zinnias (Cut and Come Again blooms well all summer in a nice selection of colors). I am not sure how warm it is in summer where you are, the last 4 do like a warm sunny spot. All of these should be easy to find locally in the seed racks at the stores.

Even cheaper, because you would need even fewer seeds since each plant is big, you could do an annual vine like morning glory and let it ramble as a ground cover (if there is nothing to climb it will crawl). BUT this can be a big weedy nuisance the following year due to all the fallen morning glory seeds all over the area.

Renee's Garden web site has detailed descriptions and planting instructions for different varieties of these annuals. Some are planted very early and some later when the soil has warmed up.

Hope this helps!

Mar 14, 2006 7:47 AM

Joni Rose :

Thanks for the terrific advice! I have planted seeds for a veggie garden but haven't ventured into planting a flower garden so that is definitely what I'll do.

To make sure I don't weed out the seedlings, I do patches of the same seeds - although it sounds like you are suggesting that I plant the seeds for the different phases at once in the area - is that correct? or do I plant the seeds at different times.

I live around the Vancouver Area of BC so weather similar to Seattle if you are in the US. Lots of rain, mild although we had freaky one day snow storms recently!

I will put down fresh soil in the areas I plan to seed. Should I mix in manure as well?

As for colours - I am a lover of bright colours -not pastels, so from a first glance at the list I can see that most are bright colours or can be bought in brights (I will have to look up some of the names). I also love having cut flowers to bring inside.

I have mostly sunny spots to seed - a couple of shady spots.

Oh and I don't dare plant morning glory LOL! as it is a weed here and takes over choking plants and making me curse at the ground!! LOL!

Thanks!! You've got me all excited to get out there and plant!!

Joni

Mar 15, 2006 10:23 AM

Barbara M. Martin :

Sorry if I wasn't clear, the sweetpeas for example germinate in a cool soil and grow best while the weather is still cool. They would be planted before your last frost, much earlier than marigolds and zinnias, for example, and the thunbergia requires hot weather and warm soil so would be planted about ten days after your last frost. You might be able to plant them on top of each other to some extent, or just in drifts (informal swathes) arranged so the later season plants can cover the area where the earliest ones have died out.

How do you prepare your soil for the veggies? Ideally you would do the same for annuals.

However, since you are leaving, it seems a shame to be adding expensive amendments. (Assuming this is being done inexpensively as possible.) Is the soil truly terrible?

Mar 15, 2006 4:58 PM

Joni Rose :

Thanks Barbara,

So I plant the seeds in stages - will do! Now I know why my sweet peas haven't grown in the past, I've started them too late! So I'll get some in the ground pronto!

The soil is okay but you make a good point about spending money on ammendments - I'll just do the "shovel and bag it yourself" dirt from the garden centre near by as it is $3 a garbage bag and it cleans up the beds. I'll skip the manure but fertilize with liquid fertilizer.

I also saw some great bags of rocks at Home Depot today that will help tidy up places in and around my pond. It will add some texture and help to tidy it up as well.

I will take before and after pictures as you have me all excited looking through books and on sites to find other hardy annuals that I can grow from seed here in BC.

Thanks again!
Joni

Mar 16, 2006 1:50 PM

Barbara M. Martin :

Definitely an exciting project!! Pictures would be so much fun!

Remember to budget something for mulch -- you'll want to mulch in between the annuals to keep the weeds down, especially when they are small. If you don't keep after the weeds your little seedlings will be swamped. And, the mulch helps keep the soil moister so you water less, too.

Cheapest mulch can be a couple layers of dampened newspaper to exclude light, top that with just enough organic mulch to hold it in place (and look good.) You could use half finished compost, old rotted leaves, or purchased mulch for this.

Or cheaper still and just the price of elbow grease, you could do the old fashioned dust mulch where you rough up the soil surface. But I think that is a lot of work in today's world. (grin)

Mar 17, 2006 2:51 PM

Joni Rose :

I have read about using newspaper for mulch but have never tried it so again - now that I am going the bargain route, I'll give it a try. I've always used landscape cloth and bark mulch.

I went to look at seeds and it was customer appreciation day so everything was 15% off! I even got a couple of rock garden perennial plants at half off the reduced price!!

We finally have sun so I'll be out this weekend preping the soil and getting it ready for a top dressing and planting of seeds.

One question I thought of was fertilizer - how often and what kind do you recommend?

Thanks so much for your inspiration and advice!

Joni

Mar 19, 2006 8:55 AM

Barbara M. Martin :

Fertilizer is not really the end all to the be all in my book. The reason I say that is as long as you have prepared your soil well with organic matter and used an organic mulch, and selected plants that are suited to the location, and you water as needed -- not over water, but as needed, and the pH is within a reasonable reading of say 6.0 to 7.5, then things should do pretty well.

It is actually better to underfertilize than overfertilize. Overfertilized plants get so lush and floppy that they become insect bait and are just wide open to diseases....

Ideally you would fertilize based on soil test results. Your county extension can help with that. It probably costs ten or fifteen bucks.

But, since everybody seems to feel better if they fertilize, I would say use a slow release general purpose maybe 10-10-10. Those can be relatively expensive but are applied once and give a fairly steady dose for months.

Cheaper would be a general purpose 10-10-10 granular for example, but apply it at a lower amount than on the label -- and then apply more often. By that I mean for example use a quarter the amount listed for early spring but apply it four times over the next couple of months. That way it would give less of a roller coaster ride on the release. Look for one with a lower proportion of urea as the Nitrogen source, too.

There are many "organic" fertilizers on the market, but they are more expensive than the synthetics.

The water soluble fertilizers are nice for container plants, but they are very expensive for use over a wide area. Since you are on a budget, I would not recommend them. Also, they take a lot of time to apply every week.

Whatever you use, be sure to read the label completely and do not apply more than the label rate. More is not better, it could "burn" your plants.

What kind of soil do you have, how do you fertilize your vegetable garden? This can give you a clue for your annuals.

I hope this helps.

Mar 19, 2006 9:49 AM

Joni Rose :

It sure does help! I find fertilizer to be one of those mysterious gardening tools that overwhelm with all the choices and complicated instructions. You make it all so simple!!! I really appreciate your advice. I always put mushroom manure on my veggie garden and so I'll do the same on the flower beds. I am thinking I'll buy 5 bags ($17.99 for 5 shovel and fill yourself bags) and fill them half with mushroom manure and half with soil and add the mixture to the beds. I'll wait until the seedlings become something before working in a 10-10-10 slow release fertilizer. Does that sound like a good plan?

Mar 20, 2006 9:47 PM

Barbara M. Martin :

You can work in the the fertilizer after planting or maybe work it in the soil just below the seeds, that way their roots will reach down to it. Either way should work.

I am curious to know what is in the soil you dig and bag? Do they tell you? (Top soil for example is usually not regulated in any way as to content. So ....)

I have used spent mushroom compost in my own flower gardens in the past with good results. Someone (whose opinion I respect) recently mentioned a concern about pathogens that might be in it and could affect seedlings. But I don't think I planted seeds where I used the mushroom compost, and that is the first time I have heard that particular concern about it. You might ask the supplier if they have had any reported problems like that? I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used it and had an experience one way or the other.

One concern with starting the garden from seeds is weeds. Here is a strategy you mght want to use. Prepare your soil, water it if it doesn't rain, and then wait a week just to see how many weeds pop up. Weed seeds near the surface will germinate -- and you can stop them easily now.

ONce about a week has gone by, rake or use a swivel hoe to lightly disturb the soil surface. This should stop the weeds that have already germinated plus some that are about to germinate. Do not go deep, you do not want to bring more seeds close to the surface where they will sprout. You can do this twice if it seems really bad. This also gives the soil a little time to settle so you can notice if there are any extra high or low spots, too.

Glad you liked the fertilizer explanation. Sometimes I think we overthink it all. :) It should be more fun, less stress. Remember, plants are pre-programmed to grow! lol

Mar 21, 2006 9:14 AM

Joni Rose :

The garden shop near me has outdoor stalls with bark mulch, bark chips, top soil, garden soil, and mushroom manure. They provide shovels and large heavy garbage bags and carts - you buy the bags and then go and shovel and load into your car. It is back breaking but really cheap. You make a good point though about weeds and contaminants. I will ask about it and also about the difference between top soil and garden soil in the stalls.

My plan is to half fill the bag with soil and half with manure and then dump it out on the bed and spread it all around and then plant. I have prepped the area by weeding and turning the soil. I have found that adding new soil helps the weed problem in my veggie garden so I am hopeful the same will happen in the flower beds.

My only delay is rain and a boyfriend who has a cold (he is my shovel and load/unload helper) or I'd be doing it today. I can't wait to get the party started!!

One other funny thing. My sister told me about this instant garden she saw on the TV. It is called "Roll and Grow". It is this 10" wide strip of "soil" and seeds in a biodegradable netting that you roll out and water. She has ordered a couple to try as she is a very busy single mom who isn't a gardener. I had a look at the site and it is your typical hardy annuals...so the funny part is that we'll probably be growing the same flowers! I told her we'll have to compare before and after pictures! LOL! There is something sacreligious about not getting your hands dirty in my books!

Joni

Mar 21, 2006 9:28 AM

Barbara M. Martin :

<a href="https://www.asseenontvnetwork.com/vcc/allstar/rollngrow/166724/">This one?</a>

hmmm.

p.s. hope your garden helper feels better soon. :)

Mar 21, 2006 7:32 PM

Joni Rose :

Yep, that's the one! Talk about taking all the fun out of gardening!

Mar 22, 2006 9:28 PM

Barbara M. Martin :

I dunno, it might be kind of fun to roll out the rug and see it grow right before your eyes like magic. :)

On the other hand, it might be a bit frustrating if it doesn't work as expected.

But on the other hand, if it did work and the results were encouraging maybe the person would be interested and enthused and try some more things in gardening. Or maybe it would inspire a child to become interested.

We can always hope! lol

Mar 24, 2006 2:46 PM

Barbara M. Martin :

I hope nobody minds, I changed the title of this discussion to more accurately reflect the content. I suspect a lot of folks have similar questions and might find this discussion about doing flowers on a quick and dirty (and cheaper) budget interesting.

Apr 5, 2006 6:51 PM

Joni Rose :

I thought I'd give you an update on my West Coast bargain garden...

I enriched the soil with manure and a bit of garden soil mixed, bought and planted the seeds and used 3 bags of gravel around the pond to make paths etc. with bricks I had on hand.

$18 for the 5 bags of soil enhancer + 3 bags of river rock at $3 a bag = $27

SEEDS

Around my pond...
Dwarf sun flowers
Forget-me-nots
Godetia
Dwarf Cherry Nasturtiums
Calendula
Scabiosa
Poppies (Shirley Double and Icelandic)
Chrysanthemums - painted daisy
Royal Carpet Alyssum
Knee high sweet peas

On a small bed by my steps...
Black-eyed Susan
Dwarf Jewel Mix nasurtiums

Seeds $20

I also had a friend help me reconcrete the trail from the upper pond to the lower pond, clean out the large fish pond (3ft deep, 3 ft wide and about 15 feet long) with about 100 gold fish that are very happy and keep breeding (I actually WANT a heron to come fishing now). I am SO pleased to have the ponds circulating again!

Reconcreting and cleaning supplies $20

I bought some assorted plants to fill other spots but kept it to cheap things like herbs and violas

Plants $15

So I am under $100 and mostly used my sweat labour to pretty things up.

Now it's up to the sun, rain, some watering and time. Wish me luck!!

Joni

Apr 7, 2006 10:22 AM

Barbara M. Martin :

WOW Fantastic! That sounds like a spring overhaul not just a little seed planting action!

Looking at the list you have a majority of spring bloomers and cool weather loving plants. Are your summer temps that cool? (My geography is not that good -- am not sure of the weather pattern except to know your winters are mild rather than outright cold, but also rainy.) Golly I'll probably have to find a Farenheit/Celsius calculator to translate whatever you tell me, too. LOL

Of all the things I miss after moving and leaving my big garden behind, the ponds are definitely near the top of the list. They are so special. Once I finally tried a pond -- many years ago, it was a mail order kit with a big plastic pool for the patio) -- I always had at least one. I even kept that first one going, moved it cross country and several times after that.

Mine were always small enough that I could reach to the bottom if I needed to without getting into the pond. Did you have to climb in wearing waders? Or did you just skim a little?

Just wondering. If you have 100 goldfish now, will you have 100,000 in a couple of months -- maybe you need some raccoons to help the heron out? Hand them out to neighbor kids?! Take them to the carnival and run a booth for wayward fish and pingpong balls?! Oh my. Now that kind of project could subsidize your gardening budget.

Apr 7, 2006 5:47 PM

Joni Rose :

It was quite the overhaul...it sadly needed it.

Yes, they are mostly Spring bloomers and cooler weather seeds as we do have a more mild climate. For example, I tend to plant the majority of my veggie garden closer to our May long weekend (May 24). Summers tend to be average...a few hot days here and there where we see temps in the high 20's C (I think that translates to 70 F??) All I know is that I could go barefoot as a kid when the temps reached 70 F. Rain - yes - lots of rain.

I will plant summer seeds once I start to see the spring flowers fading.

And yes...did have to climb in the pond. I filled a large 177L garbage pail with top pond water and then drained the rest out onto my lawn (fish fertilizer of sorts!) and then caught the fish with a net once the shallow end was drained. There were so many of them! And some are brown so they hid in the sludge. Once I got the fist out and into the pail, I had to scoop up the crud with a dollar store dust pan (was a great tool for the job!). Then we hosed and scrubbed down rocks etc. My friend helped me to secure a couple of plastic baskets (another dollar store find) onto large bricks so that I could put plants in the middle of the pond away from the racoon's reach! They have eaten all my plants!

The pond is too deep for the raccoons to be successful but they like to try...families of them sometimes!

Funny you should mention selling the fish. They are very healthy looking and so my friend may have a buyer. I'll probably give some away on trade for plants if I can find a taker or two.

Speaking of that...it reminds me of another bargain technique - getting the excess perenials when friends with gardens divide them. I have snagged a few free plants that way. I also knew someone who would look for demolition sales and then come with a shovel and pots to take away anything worthwhile. She was able to get an amazing amount of plants that way...sometimes for free...other times for next to nothing! I used to laugh at her with her as she kind of went a little overboard with it!

Ahhhh everyone loves a treasure!

Joni

Apr 8, 2006 9:09 PM

Barbara M. Martin :

One gardener's trash is ....another gardener's treasure! So true! And plant swaps either formal or informal can be a great way to expand the collection. Or get started again if you have moved to a new garden. It's a perfect way to find out what does especially well locally, too.

(Just watch out for those "spreaders" -- the ones that spread so nicely they become weedy.)

I am not usually squeamish but emptying a pond is a nasty job. I usually skipped it and let nature do the work. (That meant tolerating a bit of a mess until the temperatures stablized in the spring.)

It's funny how an improvised tool is so often just right for the job. I used to use a "special" butter knife for transplanting seedlings.

Your fish must be able to hide from the raccoons -- maybe in under those plants out in the middle of the pond. Guess that must thwart the heron, too. Oh well.

Selling your baby fish! How could you! LOL Trading for plants, now that's my kind of commerce!

OK I checked and your top summer high's are about where we just barely begin to count summer heat days. So I guess you have a true cool summer climate. No wonder you can grow some of the things you can grow that would utterly languish in, say, Virginia where winter might be equally mild but summer is so stinkin' hot and HUMID for SO long.

Golly. Gardening in a cool summer place is a whole different game. I was in Nova Scotia in midsummer a few years ago and nearly froze to death -- and the weather was GORGEOUS. And there were lupines everywhere and many delightful gardens. A bit like winter in Los Angeles, come to think of it. LOL

Apr 10, 2006 9:07 AM

Joni Rose :

Have you ever been to Seattle? Seattle is very close to me and so our weather tends to be similar. I love the summers here. We do get some hot days but just enough and the humidity is bareable. I don't have air conditioning in my car or house - I just open windows and doors to get a cross breeze going and use fans when we have our hot days.

So yes, I would call our summers mild and our winters mild. The hard part for some is the rain and grey skys. I love it! When it rains I find I am really productive on tasks that requires thinking like writing!

Yes, there are large slabs of rock in the pond that the fish can hide behind. I like to give them some places to hide.

The great news is, I am seeing two leaf seedlings everywhere!! Whooo Hooo! It is so exciting!!

Plant swap? Never heard of it. Is it all for free or is there selling going on? I'll have to try and find out if it happens around here too.

Nova Scotia is at the other side of Canada from me (East Coast, I'm on the West) so the climate is very different. My sisters live in Toronto so they see lots of snow and cold in the winter and brutally humid summers. It will be interesting to see how the roll and grow works in their climate.


Joni

Apr 10, 2006 10:37 AM

Barbara M. Martin :

Now that I am on the west coast I definitely hope to get up to Seattle and British Columbia, that whole area is an absolute gardeners' delight.

Nova Scotia has milder winters than I expected; due to the proximity to the ocean it is not as out and out cold as I would have thought for being so far north; although snow, yes. And snow is a superb insulator for plants! And the summers are cool, delightfully cool if you hail from the hot&humid belt. Here's a more exacting description of the <b><a href="http://atlantic-web1.ns.ec.gc.ca/climatecentre/default.asp?lang=En&n=61405176-1">climate in Nova Scotia</a></b>.

Toronto seems more like parts of the inland midAtlantic eg western PA, southwestern NY, with full fledged cold winters and yes, sometimes really nasty hot and humid spells in summer.

New York city can be brutal in summer, but nonstop hot and humid really gets going round about the latitude of Washington DC or Baltimore MD and stretches across the mid-west. (85 degrees plus with humidity of 65 percent and up is swamp-like.) And along the coast especially the growing season (consecutive frost free days) is much longer, though, and that partly makes up for the heat.

The summer heat zone map shows zones based on the number of days over 85 degrees -- that's where plants notice that it's HOT and tend to stop growing. The humidity also intensifies disease problems that thrive in damp conditions. So many plants that grow well in your summer would fail in the southeastern US due to summer heat/humidity issues. But they may be able to grow them as cool season, fall or spring plants.

But if you want a truly extreme and trying climate for gardeners, try Kansas City. If a plant grows there, it should grow almost anywhere! LOL

Plant swap. Many ways to do this. Some are just some friends informally or maybe a garden club get together and bring their extras to share. It's fun and nicer than tossing them on the compost heap. It also imposes a deadline or goal to help you get all your dividing and transplanting done by a certain time.

Some are organized and open to the community. Some imnpose quality control requirements and require even swaps, one common perennial for one common perennial or maybe 3 little common plants for one nicer rare plant. (They use plant tokens or tickets to tally it all up -- one green one for three blue ones.) This can get really crazy unless the quality evaluators are beyond reproach.

Some are done as fundraisers. The

Apr 11, 2006 12:17 PM

Joni Rose :

Okay, you brought up something I don't know much about. Thinning the seedlings. Is there a rule of thumb on this or do I just take out side by side seedlings?

I bought a little plastic seeder this time to help with all the seeding. It is a plastic cup with a long spout and a clear cover. You open the cover and put the seeds in the cup part and then dial a seed size which allows the seeds to come out the spout. I found it was quite usefull as it spaced out the seeds even when I was scattering the smaller ones.

Plant swaps sound really interesting! I'll have to check out gardening clubs in the area!

Joni

Apr 11, 2006 2:14 PM

Barbara M. Martin :

If you have too many seedlings too close together they will crowd and become stunted. Usually the first ones up are the best plants, so remove their close neighbors. You can take out the closest, then come back in a bit and thin again once they are growing well and you can really see the forest for the trees.

Rule of Thumb:

If the plant ultimately grows to be six inches wide across, thin to four to six inches apart. If it grows to be a foot wide, thin to maybe 8 to 12 inches apart. (Depends how you like the final look, well spaced or really full.)

You can also transplant seedlings, using the tip of your trowel -- just pop them out (roots and all!) and pop them in where you want them. This can be helpful if you get bad germination in one area or need to fill in thin spots or want to rearrange for some reason.

Don't wait too long to thin -- once you have a forest of tightly spaced seedlings it becomes difficult to preserve the "keepers" without damaging them when removing the others.

To remove, you can clip them off or pull them up or disturb with a garden claw or swivel hoe. Sounds like weeding, doesn't it! Whatever works. Just don't damage the keepers.

hth